MSNBC "The Rachel Maddow Show" - Transcript: Interview with Rep. Bennie Thompson

Interview

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MADDOW: He must appear this Saturday, where we are advised he will plead the Fifth. That was Mississippi Congressman Bennie Thompson tonight on a surprising new development in the January 6th investigation that Congressman Thompson chairs.

The investigation, members of that committee did vote tonight unanimously to refer former Trump Justice Department official Jeff Clark for prosecution by the Justice Department over refusal to comply with subpoenas from the committee.

But Mr. Clark is also going to apparently be pleading the Fifth and invoking his Fifth Amendment rights to avoid incriminating himself. That was something we did not see coming and I`m not sure how that factors into his potential contempt committee and what happens next.

Luckily Congressman Bennie Thompson, chairman of the January 6th investigation, is now able to join us live.

Mr. Chairman, sir, thank you so much for joining us tonight. I know it`s a business evening.

THOMPSON: Thank you for having me, Rachel.

MADDOW: Can you explain in layman`s terms, what this means? What we had been prepared for was a vote on your committee on whether or not to refer Mr. Clark to be prosecuted to the Justice Department for ignoring subpoenas, for defying the committee, for being in contempt of Congress. This Fifth Amendment announcement you made tonight at the committee`s proceedings, I`m not sure what the implications are for what`s going to happen next.

THOMPSON: Well, the implications is, we will give Mr. Clark his right to assert his Fifth Amendment before the committee should he chooses. We have been negotiating since October with Mr. Clark. We are doing everything we can to show that we are not partisan, that this committee is just trying to get to the facts.

As you said, we voted unanimously tonight to hold him in contempt. I will go before the rules committee in the morning to proffer a rule to go to the floor. We`ll hold that in abeyance until Saturday.

So, this will be Mr. Clark`s last chance to come. He can come and assert himself. But, you know, if you say you haven`t done anything wrong but on the other hand you want to assert the Fifth Amendment in terms of self- prosecution, it`s saying that you have something to hide.

So we`re going to give him an opportunity to do it. A lot of other people have come before the committee, they have done what`s right, they have talked to us, and we thank them for it.

[21:50:02]

Our charge is to get to the facts. Mr. Clark, through his attorney, has been deliberately avoiding us. This is his last chance to come if he wants to assert it, Rachel, he can do it. But it will be under oath. And he is still subject to certain penalties should he decide to not tell us anything.

So, we`ll go forward. It just delays it. If we`re not satisfied with what happens on this Saturday, we have all next week to bring this issue before the Congress for the contempt citation.

MADDOW: As you say, there are implications of invoking the Fifth Amendment. It is a right that protects us against self-incrimination. In the context of an open investigation like this, I think those questions that you raise about what it means that he is invoking his Fifth Amendment rights, what it means when you`re pleading the Fifth on the case like this is a pretty pointed question.

I mean, bluntly, does this -- does this decision imply that Jeff Clark and his attorneys believe there was some kind of criminal activity committed by the president or people around him, Mr. Clark, that -- on the matters that you want to question him about?

THOMPSON: Well, it could very well mean that. But, obviously, he is aware that something went on that is illegal. And rather than be responsible and answer, he is pleading the Fifth.

Now, the question is, did you participate in these illegal activities in the White House? As you know he recommended a process by which the elections could be manipulated in certain states. Well, that`s clearly illegal. What we need to hear from him whether or not he said it, we have reason to believe he did.

But if he is of the opinion that if I come before the committee and acknowledge that, then I have contributed to the January 6th insurrection in part simply because I made a recommendation that ultimately led states to believe they could overturn the election.

Look at what went on in Arizona. Look what tried to go on in Michigan. Look at Georgia. We had the secretary of state in Georgia basically say the president called me and tried to get me to somehow find enough votes to change the outcome of the election.

Well, this is part of what we believe Mr. Clark knew about and part of his recommendation. That`s why he needs to come before the committee. But if he is saying, okay. I`ll come but I`ll plead the Fifth, then in some instances that says you are part and parcel, guilty to what occurred.

MADDOW: Congressman Bennie Thompson, chairman of the January 6th investigation, this is a fascinating -- this is a fascinating pivot point in this investigation, sir. We`ll be watching closely. Thanks for helping us understand tonight.

THOMPSON: Thank you, Rachel.

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